A proposal: Amendment to the Code of Honor

Viki:

Nothing personal, I have Metavine watchlisted. That way, if something that doesn't belong there shows up, I can de-clip it.

that's the way I handle it...no probs

I use the daily email alerts myself and don't really have a problem. I even get emails asking if articles are okay to publish. I was floored the first time it happened, but now realize that when users want the benefits of participating in a group, they don't want to risk doing anything to jeopardize their membership.

Viki, I realize how time consuming this must be and sympathize. I am new to newsvine, but have run a single G Rated Humor group on the web successfully for over 10 years now. I set down guidelines and sticky noted them to the top of the page. I have enforced them religiously for the entire time the group has been open. It takes time out of my day to remove and or edit out inappropriate posts, but to me it is worth the time. Over the years, several thousand people have become like family to me.

I use a zero tolerance policy. If a new member posts something grossly inappropriate, I ban them for life. This may seem draconian, but I established my group as a safe haven on the web free of all the trollishness, flaming, nudity, profanity and intolerance that I find elsewhere.

My point here is this; (I know, I know...geeze it took forever to get to it :) ) I established one group that I could devote my time to rather than a variety of groups where I am stretched thin and do a less than adequate job of patrolling and encouraging folks to follow the guidelines. I have noticed that many here start groups in wholesale lots and then are surprised when they get filled with trolls, spam, advertising and off topic discussions. Perhaps an amendment to limit the number of groups that any viner can start would be more appropriate then an amendment that just tries to weed out spammers. This will allow the admins of the groups to focus their efforts on making and managing one or two GOOD groups rather than 12 bad ones.

However astute and intelligent one is, it is hubris to think that if you don't start a particular group it won't get started. I think that Focus is the key here.

Love your articles :)

Thank you Viki :) I am glad I was able to add something of value to the discussion. I would love to see the quality and activity of the Newsvine groups improve and will most definitely NOT be one of the spammers :)

I do understand the frustration, and even the point of what you are suggesting...On the other hand, doesn't the group "belong" to the administer/s? You suggest that they may not have the time. Perhaps they are "attention whores" if they have too many groups to administer properly (nothing personal)? In other words I come down on the side of individual liberty and responsibility on this one. Certainly "owners" should have the right to decide how to administer their group(s), including monitoring what gets posted to said group, but don't they also have the responsiblity to do it? Perhaps I'm not as familiar with the demands and problems as I should be.

Mistakes are easy to make but some people are just hellbent on spamming a group. I have one (former) member of the SexVine group who just kept posting stuff that got no comments and no votes. Even after being told that he/she was spamming the group he/she kept going, with more articles that never got a single comment or vote. If you've posted 50+ articles to a group and they have generated no interest yet you keep doing it, you're spamming. Unpopularity is one thing but this went beyond that. In the end I booted the contributor from the group. Had the writing shown a spark of talent I would have taken the contributor under my wing to nurture that talent, but these contributions were drivel and did nothing but force more worthwhile material off the front page of the group.

's up to group admins to warn members to stop spamming the group and/or boot them.

We can't rely on group admins to properly police their gro

I want to say a big ditto to what I read above by Viki, Neenie and others -
the one that tends to irk me the most are people who seed or clip their own
stuff to the Newsviners Picks group where I expressedly state - and send out a few reminders each month - that it's a place to celebrate good articles by others (not seeds and not publishing your own stuff) and
yet I know when I go look at the group page after not looking at it for
two weeks it'll have at least five seeds. Then I'm in the position referred
to where you say, ok one or two mistakes, i can understand and sure i can
kick someone out of the group but this is probably just a tip of the iceberg.

A related problem here is some of the groups people are publishing and clipping to - especially when someone writes an article and publishes it
to 20 plus groups - are some of those whose leaders are no longer involved,
some of the ones tyler is talking about here, so then nobody is around to
declip it and thus you run into the confusion dowswer mentioned above wherein you're not sure if an article fits a group because other articles
clipped also don't quite fit the group.

viki, i support you completely on this one.

I think I may have spammed some groups early on and I'm one of those who learned from emails from groups chastising me when I went over the line. These days I try to avoid publishing something to more than five or so groups even if it could apply to more - i'd rather be frugal than extra grabby if you know what i mean.

The key to a successful group is communication. Newsvine Photographers needs very little moderation* and I attribute this to the admin team. Between the three of us (along with the "unofficial" mods) everything that comes in is read, commented on, or, if necessary, gently corrected. I am of the volition that our active members know exactly how to participate and know to ask questions when they are unclear because of this.

I don't think it's out of line to suggest that most owners create their group, write an announcement article with thin guidelines, and expect everyone to automatically know how to participate. They don't know, they need constant, consistent reminders. Plus, there's a pretty good chance that the initial guidelines will need to revised/tweaked over time. In my opinion, this is why groups are in the state they're in.

*Seriously, I've had to remove maybe five seeds since inception.

I like Ben's point on the owner writing a 'guidelines article.' Not everyone is going to read it for one, and even if they do, ignorance still happens. Constant reminders of everything we do in life that are truly important will always be necessary...And, yes, guidelines may need to be altered from time to time; new ideas from new users may present themselves; but, it is always wise to be leary of capricious behavior.

In general, I'm against the deletion of groups.

Viki,

Now I know this isn't going to win me any brownie points, but this all seems pretty petty to me. What's the big deal? If an Article comes into a group that is "off topic", just ignore it. Members of the group have the right and ability to just move on to another article that peaks their interest. Are people in groups Ostriches? Did they join groups to stick their heads in the proverbial sand. Is being exposed to a topic other than that which the group has as it's primary purpose so offensive. Perhaps someone "sheltered" in a group might see a Title and become curious about a new topic they didn't know they had an interest in until they saw it. This is Newsvine, after-all. I believe the slogan is "Get smarter here" Pretending News doesn't happen on a particular subject, doesn't mean it doesn't.

Well, I'm sure that puts me on the @!$%# list, but I had to let it out.

And IMO, @ 2 , This radical attitude in a guide is very unsettling. I have already been the victim of his punitive actions. I was removed by him for "Spamming" his group without so much as a warning. A simple, polite, request to be more careful as to what I posted would have sufficed. As a Guide I would have expected a little more helpful guidance as opposed to a dictatorial hatchet job.

Well, now I'm sure I'm really in deep, but it had to be said.

A simple, polite, request to be more careful as to what I posted would have sufficed.

A very common problem, and one that I've written about in the past, is that not everyone responds to a simple, polite request in a timely nor respectable manner. Sometimes the attempt to be polite is taken as being condescending. At other times the request to remove an article from a group to which it does not belong goes completely unheeded, with no response, positive or negative at all. We would LIKE to think that we are all reasonable people who will respond to things in a calm, rational, and reasonable manner but that is very often not the case. As you will note by some of the comments in this discussion thread, some people don't even think that spamming a group should be addressed or punished in any way. They think that if someone posts an article about container gardening to a group about Civil War battlefields it should just be ok and that any attempt to remove that article from the group would be censorship.

DB Zero

At other times the request...goes completely unheeded, with no response, positive or negative at all.

Oh, you mean like when I send an email to a certain NV Staff member Moderator who shall remain nameless and I here NOTHING in return and the requested action is ignored. Is that what you mean?

Red Wolf

You can try and save face for your unjust actions, but anyone who goes to the links you so graciously provided can clearly see that those warnings all came on the same day and within 10 minutes of each other on two seeds and one accompanying Poll. Your removal of me from the group happened on the same day. You gave me absolutely no chance to comply. No new seed or article was posted to the group after the the removal of the seeds and article because you booted me without waiting to see if I would comply. You were and are wrong.

Red Wolf:

I don't see the words, "Removed from Newsvine Technology." to be a warning. I see an incomplete sentence. *What* was removed? Sure, now that we're dragging the dirty laundry out into the light of day, one can intuit that we're talking about an allegedly spammed article. But just reading those words in a comment appears, at first blush, to be confusing and meaningless. Was it too much trouble to tack the words "This Article" on to the front of that incomplete sentence to make it intelligible? The articles were published over a period of 3 days. The author got 3 "warnings" in 10 minutes, and then was immediately booted? I guess so long as your Customer Turnover rate stays on the positive side, no problems, right?

I look at Newsvine Technology's "About" page, and I see the words, "or anything else that's so cool it's almost magical." What criteria determines whether or not an article is "so cool"? Is an article that cautions pedophiles to purge their cam-phones before they recycle them "cool"? How does an article about a two-hundred-year-old locomotive that's polluting our environment with its coal-burning boiler fit the definition of "cool"? Pedophiles and historical articles are cool, but social evolution isn't, eh?

I find the "charter" of the Newsvine Technology group to be too vague, and its enforcement to be capricious and vindictive.

...I guess I won't be requesting a membership in that one...

MyView-222:

I think the fact that you have memberships in only 2 groups is a Good Thing. None of the 3 articles that are the focus of this thread were valid for the inclusion in the Technology group. This whole "I'll publish wherever I damn well please" attitude on the part of some users is something we're trying to find ways to eliminate with this article/discussion. If you have lots of Friends, and you write lots of interesting articles/seeds, you don't really need any groups at all...

Red Wolf,

You were given warnings on three off topic posts that hit the front page of the group on the same day

That's a lie and you know it. The proof is in the links you provided. First, as Sir Richard Owen stated, nothing you wrote had any mention of a warning. A Guide should at least be able to verbalize his thoughts. Second, those links you provided were for one posted on the 8th of June and 2 posted on the 10th. Your "warnings" came all on the 11th, within 10 minutes of each other and I was simultaneously booted from the group.

You sent another off topic post and you were booted.

I hadn't seeded another article until the 12th, after you had booted me. So to say I sent another and then was booted is a lie. Your sense of fairness is dwarfed only by your lack of communication and managerial skills.

I have to agree with you (5.10); I see it as part of the bigger picture in our country which is, substitute the words "publish wherever" with the words 'do whatever' -- and you get unruly, disrespectful, unorganized chaos and 'defiance.' ....(is it police brutality we are seeing in our communities or is it this 'general' defiant attitude of lawlessness that is the problem? - not to be off-topic; was hoping to make a correlation. :)

It really doesn't matter, group owners are free to run their groups as they see fit as long as they abide by the CoH, including removing unwanted persons for whatever reason. Get over it.

Get over it.

Get a clue. This is not about my being booted from the group. It's about the horrible attitude of an individual who is supposed to be of help to the users of Newsvine. As a user of Newsvine for less than 6 months and a member of only three groups, he should have been quicker to offer helpful Guidance to proper etiquette as opposed to being so quick to hand out gleeful reprisal and castigation.

Change the attitude and you may have a point.

...and to be fair, most groups could use some "charter" development.

Perhaps the new member isn't in any 'groups' yet, so may not have the ability to 'publish to' or 'clip' to anything other than 'All of NV' when seeding or writing an article...

dcstone01 -- Do you mind explaining further, specifically, "not have the ability to 'publish to' or 'clip' to anything other than 'All of NV." ----Does that mean there is an interim period before NV will allow group participation? Or is it determined by belonging to just one, then we are allowed to participate in others? Obviously, I haven't read the rules on group participation, sorry about that, and hope you don't mind the inquiry.

I am owner of a few groups and there are a couple of people that tend to post/clip off-topic articles to those groups...I mean how hard is it to understand the difference between 'Hobbies and Crafts' and something that is 'political'?...

The one group that is 'troubling' is the 'Entertaining' group...I specifically state in the title header that is about 'in home entertaining, party planning, food, tips, ideas, etc...But I get articles on 'movie gossip or 'record sales, or some other off-topic thing that I end up deleting them from the group...I assume that people are confusing this group with the 'general topic' of entertainment....

Click on the link and see what I mean...I haven't deleted anything this week so there are some good examples to look at...do any of those articles look to you like 'party plans' or anything related to the group description?

This got posted to the satire@newsvine group:

So now Dick Cheney is involved in this BP mess?

Groups:

2010 Elections, BlackFolks, Disaster!, Left of Center, Mad For Rachel Maddow, ObamaExpress, ObamaVine, Psych, Soc, Philos, Remembering Bush-Cheney & Co, Satire @ Newsvine, Science And Technology, Welcomevine, Worldviews

Not only did it not belong in satire, I'm unclear on its place in Science and Technology and Welcomevine or Psych, Soc and Philos. This is a mild one. Argh!

I would, Viki.

Soosalah,

I think all you would have to do is contact Tyler and explain and request and he could make you the owner. A couple of months ago there was some clean-up and that's how quite a few groups got new owners and some groups got refreshed.

Would you like to adopt a group?

Thanks Ben, I was going to look for it and got sidetracked. Pesky phone.

Thanks guys, but it won't happen.

I know the article, Ben, and I did ask for one or two of the groups available, but Newsvine isn't real big on overlooking past comments.

Thank you, though.

For the record, Tyler's article was in response to my article regarding groups.

That's what got it started.

That does nothing for the group issue. That has only to do if it is an opinion article published as news, or if the story in the Newsvine seed is WAY off from the story of the original article. Say that the NYT has an article on a fight between two high schools after a game. The title of the NYT article says Rivals Fight at Stadium After Game. I could use the original title but make the fight about race or terrorist or politics. I could say it was because of the urban lifestyle and children out of wedlock or anything but the high school kids mad because they lost or because someone pushed too hard. That is miscategorized/off topic.

SW Missouri Mule #9.1 - Sun May 30, 2010 5:20 PM CDT

That does nothing for the group issue.

Oh, I think it would. It would certainly get an off-topic article out of a group, if enough people reported it, and probably out of other off-topic groups as well, if it was spammed all over. It would also minimize the problem of complacent admins not policing their groups. If people had to complain to Staff in order to get their removed articles restored, then Staff would be able to determine from looking at the groups list of the article why it was removed, and identify the spammers. Then all it would need is a Policy Change, and not a change to the COH.

I could use the original title but make the fight about race or terrorist or politics.

That's already covered under the #3 of the COH, and is already being enforced in some cases that I have seen. Staff just needs to cast a wider net.

Thank you, Red Wolf.

Red Wolf #9.3 - Sun May 30, 2010 10:52 PM CDT

If you keep reporting legitimate articles as violations, your reporting privileges will be revoked.

"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."
— Abraham H. Maslow

SRO, put the hammer down and pick up your glasses. If you are reporting articles that have no violation, then YOU are the one at fault, not the author. And while I'm here, if you would adopt a less hostile approach, you might actually have fun. There are some really good people here, but you've been around long enough to know that.

SW Missouri Mule #9.6 - Tue Jun 1, 2010 11:31 PM CDT

And while I'm here, if you would adopt a less hostile approach

I think you're confused on who is using the hostile approach.

Would it make you feel better if I addressed you with the same type of language that "Jack" used with you down below?

It ain't happening...

Gee, SWMM, you don't seem at all confused to me. But perhaps I'm distracted by all that noise rattling from the bull in the china closet.

Sorry, Viki.

I like the idea...as an option. I wish there were more configuration options in general for groups, though. Public and private doesn't really cut it.

I think there should be an option for the group owner/moderator to have to approve material to be posted to the group. As I envision it, the owner/moderator would receive an email alert about the posted/clipped material and have the opportunity to approve or disapprove it. Some group members could be granted the ability to post material without having to go through an approval process but the default setting for any group member would require approval.

I've been reading down the list, and this is the idea I like the most so far. I am not certain about the COH violation, groups should be administered by their owners and admins, not the Vine staff as far as I am concerned. But giving groups the option for approval of articles means not only that admins can control their groups better, but that people can see which groups are well controlled. I don't even think it will make more work for the admins, to be honest. One of the hardest part about administering a group is working your way through all the articles, trying to remember if they're new etc. Presented with a list for acceptance, rather than trying to decide whether to delete, would be easier in my mind.

It does add a level of control, and I like that, but is going through an approval process going to turn people off from submitting articles to groups that employ it?

I hate to say this, but, in some cases, it would turn me off. I need a group or two where I can publish stuff for fun... Not necessarily subject specific. And I can't be all "high brow" all the time. I think too much at work-- I need some down time with friends, too.

I'm too busy researching articles, as it is-- I carry around a huge file, stuffed with information that I'm researching-- and I really want to keep up with my friends and what they have to say... If that makes any sense.

A warning would be nice. And, personally, I don't think it should be a CoH violation-- just a violation of the group. One warning, and if you still publish something wrong-- let the group administrator take the article off, or kick you out. Does that make sense?

Good luck, you all-- I know this is hard to deal with. If I've muddied the waters, I'm sorry! :-)

Great idea, Peter. It only makes sense that the group owner should take full responsibility or delegate as he/she sees fit.

Dowser, I would only support this idea if it was optional for the groups. Some groups are, as you say, far more free and won't employ it.

It isn't the occasional miss posting. It's the person who posts every article to the 200 groups they belong to. Example: One group has a small membership and is very topic specific. One member posts all of his articles and seeds to that group. I have group on daily alert and keep getting email for nonsense I'm not interested in. Owner does nothing or doesn't notice. This person is spamming not only one group but 200. This would not effect your group but may hit a member. Chances are you are in at least 1/3 of the same groups.

Before accepting someone into your group check out that persons column and try to see if their interests lay within the topic of your group.

Now see, that wouldn't work for me...I am in literally 116 groups ranging in topic from A-Z...and am admin for 8 of them. I read from a wide variety of topics that either I do not comment or, nor vote or tag or clip etc...

AND...I keep my group list private since a few of my groups are 'private', no one knows the full list I have except the NV admin or myself...

So based on my comment, you may not 'accept' me for a group of yours based on your requirement because you may/may not see if I have "interests that lay with your group"

There should be something in the article tags relevent to the groups it's posted or clipped to. If the group is Dogs and Cats and the article tags are mccain, trainwreck, palin, politics, right wing, republicans, tea party the article obviously doesn't belong.

mstanley2265,

I agree with you:)

When I clip or seed articles, I don't just send them out to all the groups. If I am not sure if it belongs on a group page, I go to the group page to make sure before I send it their way. When I have realized I made a mistake, I went back, and first of all apologized, then I removed it from that group page.

That is why I don't know 'how' I spammed the health group...I sure didn't mean to do that!!!

How many groups are there and how many are overlapping in design? Check the groups named in #23 and #23-1 and I could have added added a couple to that. Some topics can't be contained to a few groups.

Some topics can't be contained to a few groups.

Well, that's what the last bit is about. Maybe an example would help:

I own a group called LawVine, but I also belong to a few other groups of overlapping interest like Criminal Justice and Supreme Court Watch. Those are all groups with a strong topical interest. It's not unreasonable to assume that were an option like I described available, all of those groups would be configured with it active. On the other hand, lots of other groups of which I'm a member are more general interest, and maybe won't be configured with that option.

So how do I envision this working? Let's say that a death penalty case is decided on a given day by the SCOTUS, and that the three groups I've mentioned have the "topical interest" option selected. If the "limit" were set to five, then two other groups of topical interest could be selected, and any number of "general interest" groups could be selected in addition to that. (Maybe that limit could even be set by the group owner/admin).

In other words: yes, there are lots of groups with overlapping interests to which an article or seed can correctly be published. But there must be some reasonable limit on the number of topically-focused groups the site can support. How many Apple-specific groups does Newsvine need, really? How many groups focused on various aspects of the legal system? There's overlap, but for a lot of topics there's not that much overlap.

I just wish there were more options available to group administrators over what content filters into their groups. I don't own any high traffic groups, but their administration is already a pretty substantial time commitment. I moderate a few high traffic groups, but, honestly, I don't contribute much to their moderation; it's just more work than I can commit to on a regular basis. Some of this could be automated, and it should be.

Some will start a new group without checking for an existing with the same interest. Or because they want to be in charge. Not wanting to miss out I might join both or all ten of them.

How about a tutorial for those wanting to start a group? I have never started one so that may already be in place.

Some will start a new group without checking for an existing with the same interest.

Sure, I have no doubt about that. That's why I'm suggesting what seems (to me) to be a relatively high number: five or ten. That gives a little slush room. Also, that's why I asked to make this a configuration option, so the administrator or owner of the group would be the one to decide if their group would be affected by the restriction.

How about a tutorial for those wanting to start a group?

That's my bad, I volunteered to write one, haven't gotten to it but I will.

While you may have some mods who are willing to educate offenders, some offenders will view this as a message that it is still permissable to spam all their other groups.

That is when I boot the user out of the group, as consequence perhaps it's cause to alert other group owners and also alert staff in a bug report on user.

I remain anxious about reporting innocuous seeds to a group. It happens. If it goes beyond the innocuous, then it's time to notify tech staff of problematic users. Is it necessary to write that in CoH verbiage?

I think many group owners are too lazy to strictly adhere to group missions. How will CoH regs make it better?

On the face of it, I think Vicki's proposal violates a group owner's authority to manage her/his group mission. And, it gives Tyler one more item to track, in his incredibly overwhelming workload? No?

Let's say you have someone, as I have seen a few times, who isn't spamming maliciously but they are spamming their groups as a way of publicizing their material. For the sake of discussion we'll say that this person is writing articles that are actually good articles, well-written pieces of 300+ words. They are, however, posting or clipping these articles to every group to which they belong. We'll say this person belongs to 50 groups so everything they write gets posted to these 50 groups every time. Should there be an administrative way to keep such a person from engaging in such behavior, as in suspending their Newsvine account for a certain period of time, or should it be up to the 50 group owners/moderators to either remove the material from the group or boot the user from the group? On the other hand, should the administrative solution be built into the site in such a way that a user could not post or clip material into more than 5 groups at a time within a 24-hour period of time?

Dx0:

Should there be an administrative way to keep such a person from engaging in such behavior,

Yes:

This is not hard. It doesn't require multiple articles from multiple people, it doesn't take new rules, or pipedreams of new technology or new work for anybody else.

If a member is @!$%#ing up a group you administer, boot them. If an administrator is @!$%#ing up group you are a member of, leave the group.

Like I said. Not hard.

On a private group where there are only so many members, I hate to leave over one person. However, this may be necessary to get my point across. The problem with the 50 group spammer is that only the owners that monitor their groups are going to kick the (greedy pig) over zealous contributor out. I don't think it is right for the rest of the members. One person gains extra exposure while the rest follow the rules.

Maybe we should start a group like the anti-spam where we can report the group spammers and someone nicer than I can send a friendly email telling them what an ass they are.

Bonnie, I didn't see a problem with the articles or seeds you clipped to Health. I saw a couple others that did not belong and one user who had 6 or 7 and not one had anything to do with health. If you really want back in the group, email the owner and ask why s/he considers you activity spamming when all yours were health related.

btw, you don't have to clip your own articles/seeds. When you are putting the article together there is a place for publishing to your groups. First one shown is "All of Newsvine" which is checked by default. You just need to check the groups you feel are relevent. And use your tags. If your tags don't include "health" then it may not go in that group, just as example.

#22: Why I was removed from the group for spamming, I do not know or understand...

Nor do I. I don't belong to that group; doubt much that I'd care to join it. I know your track record, Bonnie, and you are as solid as they come. I can come up with only one reason you got ejected for "spamming" : someone was jealous that your articles were getting more attention than theirs. I'd like to think I'm wrong, but that is just about the only explanation I can think of. There are, unfortunately, a few individuals who believe they should be the center of everyone's universe, and the moment attention is drawn away from them, they can't stand it and will do just about anything to draw attention back to themselves.

I agree that anyone being "punished" for doing something "wrong" should be told precisely what they did wrong and that there should, perhaps, be a second opinion where requested. Otherwise, people can be subjected to a form of dictatorship that really benefits no one.

I'm not so sure that Newsvine as a whole suffers that much when a tyrant is operating in our midst, but it is also not doing it any real favors, either. I really think CoH should apply as much to unfair moderating as it does to individual transgressions.

Thank you SW Missouri Mule and bitemore! I appreciate your checking out what I was talking about!

I agree that anyone being "punished" for doing something "wrong" should be told precisely what they did wrong and that there should, perhaps, be a second opinion where requested. Otherwise, people can be subjected to a form of dictatorship that really benefits no one.

Red Wolf,

Would you please show me what I did wrong and where? I would appreciate it very much...that way I won''t make the same mistake twice.

Bonnie, your articles are lovely! I think you have a great deal of integrity as to where you post them!

:-)

Aww, Dowser you are so sweet...

I really do try to play by the rules...thank you:)

I know you do! If I do something, it is because I don't understand. No malice intended... I think we are both that way! :-)

Dear Bonnie, please keep writing!

I love to write, for better or worse, lol...so I will keep writing:))

I agree, we are both that way.

That makes no sense to me as I know political seeds do not belong on the health group.

Did I actually seed or clip them to the health group, or did someone else clip them? I sure do not remember that at all!

I CLIP articles to the groups!!!! I do not seed (unless it is a story or article I have written) to the groups, unless that is what the health tag is for when I seed an article to all of NV.

What is off topic content? I was in the health field for years, that is why I was interested in this group, and that is why I like to talk about health stuff...

For some reason you seem really PO'd at me, and I don't know why. Have I said something that offended you somewhere along the way? This is NOT major life and death stuff, it is just a screw up somewhere and I want to figure out what and why...

I just am trying to understand what I supposedly did wrong so I won't screw up again...except I do not believe that I did. I ALWAYS go through and make sure that before I clip something to a group, I go to the group page and READ some of the articles posted first to see if it fits. If I am not sure, I do NOT post.

That is how I have been doing things since I joined some of the groups!!! So why in the world would I go and post irrelevant topics on a group page when I have made it a practice to "always" check before I post?????????????????? Doesn't make sense to me!

I don't suppose anyone else ever makes "off topic comments"? For some reason mine were 'more off topic'??? Whatever...

Between this exchange and the article written, I think it's time to accept the decision and move on. Sorry...

I thought I was staying focused as I am one of the ones accused of spamming.

I will use this as a learning experience. I am not compaining about my mistakes. I am trying to figure out exactly what I did...since there is no evidence for me to see.

Wow. I'm going to have to re-educate myself on the word, spamming. I've always thought it pertained to those people who advertise or join over and over again, just to promote a business or something.

My thoughts exactly...

Will somebody please just say "this topic is health-related" and "this topic is political."

That seems to be where the point of contention is -- not whether she *submitted* or not, but how it is categorized. (Just trying to hurry this along.)

--now in edit mode: I'm no expert, but I've understood the term *spamming* to include what you described, Soos, as well as the manner in which it is carried out. If someone blindly *broadcasts* a pile of their articles, seeds, or clippings out to a group outside their interests, it's spamming the group. For instance, I'm in a group of activists. They specifically state they don't accept articles about what someone thinks NEEDS activism, only articles ABOUT activism. Distinction....

storyartist,

Yeah, I understand the distinction, and how you worded it, it makes sense. I also agree with spiffie, and I think from now on, I will be sure to ask, before clipping to a group.

To be sure, I don't doubt it is irritating to be an administrator and keep a constant watch over what is or isn't appropriate to that group.

I'm always amazed in these discussions how the aim is to *homogenize* all of Newsvine into one rule. As a personal POV, I'd like some groups to be quite strict, with a moderator who stays up, and a Mission Statement such as the one put forth by the Activism group I mentioned. Also, I'd like some of my groups to be quite lax, with room to see what pops up from the middle, so to speak, creatively. Maybe I just indulge different sides of my personality in that way. But I like to think other people have similar inconsistencies.

So my request would be that some sort of procedure be considered to help the administrators -- not the members themselves. Because the last thing I'd be happy with is a *one size fits all* rule about groups (other than CoH/UA).

As a person that is not involved in the Bonnie situation, and realizing this may not be the forum, I still would be interested in using it, or another situation which we could all look at and see if we agree. If not, perhaps, as suggested, it would be better for each owner/moderator to make his/her decision regarding his/her group. Doesn't that allow for more diversity while continuing to allow each group to police its own? I do think owners/moderators should receive notification of any seed/article prior to it being posted to the group. Perhaps an option of "ignoring" a particular contributor would also be in order assuming notification is given.

the Bonnie situation

LOL!!

Lol, that's what I thought too:))

It's the title of my new novel regarding a health professional/detective/politician/philosopher/cook/pet owner/conservative/liberal...do you think anyone would have a problem if I clipped it to a few groups? :)

If I had a group you could clip it there, Socrates. You know I would just unclip it cause that's the way we are.

In essence it seems that you are suggesting that moderators are not doing their job. The tools are there and yet you suggest that it would be "easier" if "Newsvine" did the job.

I've mentioned this before in that 'what would you like for groups v2' article but I'd really love to be able to create letter templates (new member welcome/guidelines, inappropriate content warning, you've been booted, etc) and be able click a drop down or something, and quickly send the appropriate email to a specific user.

I think what some of us are saying is that the tools could be better. Technology is a wonderful thing, and can automate away the tedium of repetitive tasks.

I booted a spammer yesterday and he requested membership again, I e-mailed him an explanation for the termination of his membership and he seemed to be very understanding. There are some groups I belong to that have great potential and I'm very interested in the topic but I just don't go there because of all the off-topic crap. It's sad, I want to send the owner an e-mail and say WTF!, but it wouldn't be prudent. :)

As a member of any group, should a member come across ANY article that falls within the description of a group...any member can 'clip it' to those groups...

Mr. Spocky did NOT do anything wrong...by clipping that article to those groups...I do this same thing ALL the time...MOST members do it as well...whether or not it is a Meta article or not...

Now, if a particular group only allow 'members' to seed/clip only those articles they wrote themselves (like some groups do '8 things you didn't know' is one of these), there is no other restriction on who, clips...what...then don't worry about it, even if it is 'Meta'...it is still within NV...

Personally, had I read the article I would have also clipped it to 'Activism', 'Open Minded', 'Queer finds on Straight Talk', 'Respectful Debate', 'Seeders and Posters w/manners', 'The Open Closet' and 'WTF'...just to name a few...

#23.1: Mr. Spocky did NOT do anything wrong...by clipping that article to those groups...I do this same thing ALL the time...MOST members do it as well...whether or not it is a Meta article or not...

You are correct. Every group MrSpocky clipped to was in the same category as the article clipped. There is no rule that says you can clip only to one group; as long as the article falls within a group's guidelines/rules, you can clip the article.

dcstone01

Mr. Spocky did NOT do anything wrong...

OK, but Soosalah did. From Metavine group's rules:

Things Not to publish to MetaVine:...social stuff, etc.

I didn't write my comment to single McSpocky out. It just happened that his name figured prominently in the example. There's hundreds, maybe thousands of people who think it's their gawd-given right to publish/seed/clip anywhere they feel like it, in total disregard for the rules. And then there's admins that don't enforce their own rules. If it wasn't a problem, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Sir Dick:

a. McSpocky didn't do the clip to Metavine. Pay attention.

b. I'm a co-admin of Metavine, I read the article, saw it was clipped there and decided it was appropriate to remain because it's about Newsvine. It says so in the title. Pay attention.

c. I don't have the slightest intention of getting into a back-and-forth about this with you. This is my one and only response to you. Pay attention.

I'm not sure why Mike put Newsvine in the title. It really didn't have to be there. The article was not about NV specifically but about the anti-gay BS coming about because of the DADT policy being discussed.

You're right, SRO, there are people who want to paste anything everywhere. Hopefully we can find a solution.

SW Mule:

Not only was the article about Newsvine, it was about a specific article and a specific Viner. And everyone on that thread knew that. Why the @!$%# do you think jazzman's name came up about 50 times in the first two days despite his not being on the thread for the first two days?

And yet, having said that, even if his name and article hadn't come up in the thread, the article would still have been meta because the title said it was.

jfxgillis

a. McSpocky didn't do the clip to Metavine. Pay attention.

Where did I say he did?

b. I'm a co-admin of Metavine, I read the article, saw it was clipped there and decided it was appropriate to remain because it's about Newsvine. It says so in the title. Pay attention.

What you need to read is the About page of your group, and make yourself familiar with the rules on what's supposed to be posted there.

c. I don't have the slightest intention of getting into a back-and-forth about this with you. This is my one and only response to you. Pay attention.

That's a Good Thing.

Jack, did my dog @!$%# on your lawn? Dang! I was on there, I know Jazzman wrote the article it was about. I also know that after the first sentence he wasn't mentioned again until sometime later in a comment. That particular viner deserves no mention in any article. He stays just within the rules. Mike R. seems a decent guy. Now don't yell at me. I'm sensitive.

SW:

I know Jazzman wrote the article it was about.

Then why the hell are you disputing my contention that it was appropriately clipped to Metavine because it was about Newsvine?

For @!$%#'s sake, my comment on jazz's article got either the most or second-most comment votes on the entire article (it was nip and tuck there for awhile, but both were over 70 votes last I checked a couple of days ago). I've been arguing this subject with him since you were a foal (if baby mules are foals). I don't agree with jazz's take but the fact is, Mike's article was about jazz and his article. That makes it meta.

Tell you what. I'll go vote on your comment and see if I can get you top spot if you aren't already there. Do I have to say I'm sorry or can I just back slowly out of the room?

SW:

Do I have to say I'm sorry or can I just back slowly out of the room?

The comment vote will be more than generous.

:^{)>

After reading Jacks comment to me, and to soothe my own anger, I have removed my response to Mr. Owen.

I must weigh in here with an opinion. In all my time on the Vine I have never understood all the FLACK about Meta Articles. It is as close as I can come to skipping over any article completely and the unending comments about META. in a blink and moving on. Who cares,first off? What makes Meta so special? As a newbie, fresh in or just out of the greenhouse, I get flammed by someone,screaming I either wrote or did not write a META ARICLE blah,blah blah.... de-post it 'RIGHT NOW',or I"LL un post it..Blah,blah...I had no clue what this person was screaming about...I still do not know or care..Every time I see this crap it is a few Vine elitists who somehow have a grandiose idea of this particular concept. I do not understand the unending blather about Meta...To me it a bunch of folks who have way to much time on their hands and need to nit-pick....or are one of the 6 employees of Newsvine.

A person can ask for help from the Newsvine staff unendingly, not a peep. Write something with Meta or Newsvine in the title and get ready for blast-off.

Most people are pretty good about being nice with the reminders. There is an official policy regarding meta articles and since we're pretty much self-policed, they're just doing their job as community members (but no one should be mean)

I guess what I am saying is...What is and what is not a META Article....If one mentions the ,[Vine ,Vine peccadillo's[?], "I emailed the staff and No One helped me", Just the plain word"META",complaining about ones treatment on the Vine, just the mention of "the Vine"] do any and all of these constitute META? And if so, whats the big deal about written material about the Vine hitting the general public? What is so secret about the "inner Vine" that has to be hidden away,exclusive to WHO and WHERE? Does not make sense to me.

Yes, you are right, about correcting a newbie in a RUDE manner,is NOT appropriate. It set the tone I followed in my relationships on the Vine...as a matter of fact I quit writing Articles on the Vine, and took all the Articles off that I had written.... I do not write smut, or things that are Bad form or rude,but it seems whatever one writes is subject to the personal interrupting of a Moderator and I can tell you the same criteria are not applied equally to individual posters...It depends on who has their finger on the button ,if you are considered one of the Vine elite,and if you are friends with the person who has their finger on the button and how many of your friends are on that thread...not very Democratic,equal,fair, in any way you look at it....this is my own personal opinion,for what its worth. The Vine lost a great writer when it lost me....all to placate someones ego and allowing a death threat to go unheeded or acted upon., folks stalking me to accept a apology from the person who made the death threat., because he was having a BAD day!.....and then folks have a rant over a couple words that might or might not contain the working of the daily Vine...Bias,yes you bet..

kjpxxx the problem that began the whole meta-crisis was the fact that meta articles, as harmless as they might seem, had begun to completely dominate the front page of Newsvine. Other articles were being forced off the front page due to all the meta content. It was far easier for someone to write a meta article than an article about anything else so they proliferated like flies on a decaying carcass. A person could throw together a 30-word meta article and get tons of comments and votes with very little effort. A decision was made that such content should not be posted to the front page in order to give material written on other topics a chance at staying on the front page for more than 5 minutes. I support that decision. Meta content is easy enough to find for anyone interested in finding it and does not belong on the front page.

Thank-youDivision by Zero for the explanation. Now that was a clear and easy explanation for me to grasp. I understand that and I can respect that answer. Don't you think ,that answer is clear and concise enough that it could be given out to new [and old] members on the Vine,so that they understand,rather than all that blather about CoHA? Instead of the META police? I find usually an explanation works , instead of a big hammer.I probably have been guilty in the past of publishing certain articles to the whole Vine, as I am never sure if a small part of the Article was META and the rest not....still have a question in my mind,sometimes...mute point now as I no longer write on the Vine.

Maybe some of us "vine elitists" need to be guides and not guards. I tend to defend the vine but will now try to keep my night stick holstered. Thanks, kjpxxx.

I wouldn't worry about it too much Soos, even jfxgillis said it in 23.4 that it was appropriate to have clipped that article to MetaVine...You did fine...

I think of all people it would be Mr. Spocky that may be a tad upset to have been 'pointed out' or used as an example, so blatantly...

Let's all just take a breath and relax a bit...

I think by now Sir R O may have a more clear understanding of what we can/can not clip to which group(s)...

dc,

Thank you, for that.

I did everything to try and get Mike to remove "all of Newsvine," but I was torpedoed by everyone there.

I really hate retaliatory articles. Going back since the beginning, I looked, but was unable to find one senior viner ever write an article against another viner, and it be allowed on the front page of Newsvine.

Susan

BTW, what happened to his article? Did he delete it, himself?

Soosalah #24 - Tue Jun 1, 2010 12:28 PM CDT

What exactly did I do wrong when I clipped an article involving Newsvine to the meta group?

The article in question was removed by the community sometime prior to 9:15 this morning. Since that is 7:15 in Redmond, I doubt if Staff had anything to do with it's removal. Nor was it deleted by the author.

There was no malice intended in using the article in question as an example of why adding spamming to the COH is not a good idea. The fact that your name came up is merely coincidence and Luck of the Draw.

But since you want to make an issue of it...

The article, since it was a Meta Article published to All of Newsvine, was in violation of the Meta Policy, and therefore unlawful. Your clipping it to Metavine made you complicit in its distribution.

The guillotine is in the shop, having the blade sharpened, so you get a reprieve, for now...

Thank you, Richard. I didn't realize.

Will do, Viki.

Archiving the finished groups has been mentioned to tyler and he thought it was a good idea. I don't think groups are high on the ladder of things to do, though.

I'd actually like to merge Greenhouse Showcase with another group, such as Mentors, or Invisible Viners. It's so dead that it almost seems pointless to have it.

Okay, I'll check and see which groups are viable and work on a merge list and we can go from there if that will work.

Ben,

Is Invisible Viners really dead? Gosh, I've been trying to get back into original thought mode just so I could post it to the group. I do remember one major rule was changed and that was no seeded articles, allowed.

Also, I need to get back to visiting Viki's writing group for help as I've been in a horrible, dreadful, slump. It doesn't feel good when I know I have nothing of substance to offer Newsvine. That's from my gut, too.

Oh, no, I was referring to merging Greenhouse Showcase into one of those groups.

Susan, you always have something to offer Newsvine. Substance? I almost had a problem with substance abuse. ;~)

Inadvisable Viners belongs to Malamuteman and is far from dead. I think that he would be horrified to even see that. He works very hard on running a tight ship and being able to provide a place for new Viners to showcase their work.

LOL, did I write that...damn my dyslexia...Invisible Viners belongs to Mal not Inadvisable Viners. Inadvisable viners is a group dedicated to Viners that will soon be banned, LOL!

I thought we had a new group. I was going to join. Now that you've defined it, my name is likely on the list already.

LOL...Maybe me, too!

Right, Soos, sometimes a polite question of why you are being corrected will help avoid bad feelings.

Vine elitists. I was called Deputy Dawg for correcting someone attacking another. We do have a few who group together to get snidely on one person trying to make her feel bad. I'm sure you have run into them. I know I have.

I think it is us, Mule, but whatever you do, don't stop. You are well respected, Mule. Trust me. People like you.

I'm being called a "hall monitor." But, whenever I'm called on the carpet regarding an interpretation of the COH, I look for a guide or a senior viner.

LOL Where's your hall pass? I remember 7th grade some kid would sit outside a classroom or at a hall junction watching for students out of class.

If they give you trouble, confiscate their smokes. Then wait for them after school and, well, you know.

#26.....when I mentioned in my post about a person stalking me , you need to look closely at that, as I am tired of you turning up in any post I make where I state an opinion...I told you several times to leave me alone, I will file a formal complaint if you continue to single me out for your rants.....like in the thread where I was threatened......Leave me alone.

kjpxxx, I doubt she is stalking you as she is my friend as you are. When we track our friends we will go to the same articles they are on. I'm sure she has others on this article. I was unaware of a problem. You can email me if you want and I will try to help.

thank you for your response SWMM...You know I am so raw over the death threat and nothing was done about it and she shows up everywhere I am at with some nit picking crap...last year she suckered me into a long personal email as I thought she was depressed and then there was name changing and then I find out the article she posted was a red herring, just to look like depression and it was a joke...ha-ha on me...I just have had enough and I will let by gone be by gones..I do not seek out her posts and make snide comments to her and I expect her to do me the same courtesy...I have a bad reaction to any and all involved in that ugly post when I left the Vine.

((((thank-you)))))

kjpxxx,

Are you talking to me? I threatened you with death? I'm not sure what you are talking about, but I would appreciate it if you would point me to these articles you're referring to, please.

Email me and let me know so we don't derail this thread.

Nothing I say will matter, anyway.